CS: Looks like I’m back. I don’t know if I should continue. We do have a few people on here, still. The software crashed and I had to restart the whole thing. Hold on a second. I’m going to put myself on mute. One moment.
The call is still being recorded; the software’s still running, so I’m going to go ahead and take a few more.
We did have a few good questions coming in, so we’ll try with SanBerry. SanBerry, you there?
SanBerry (SB): Yes, I am.
CS: Hi. What’s your actual name and where are you from?
SB: Oh. My name is Sandra —
CS: Hi, Sandra.
SB: Hi. And I’m from California. I’ve been observing your blog. I might be one of the few supporters that you have, because I feel like you, as a young person, that you’ve done a lot for a young person.
CS: Thank you very much.
SB: You’ve made some mistakes, but we all make mistakes, and you’re still young enough to get better, or to get worse. It’s based upon what you want in life, and where you want to go. So, my question is: given everything that you’ve been through, what would you tell another young person starting out, how to start, or what they should do if they still want to get into this type of business.
CS: Sure. First of all, thank you very much for such positive words. It’s rare that I get to hear stuff like that. Let me go ahead with the answer. It would say to any young person, there’s nothing wrong with going out there and trying something. You’re going to fail, and if you’re afraid of failure, you’re never going to be successful. I know it sounds cliché, but if you ask anyone who’s successful how many times they failed, they probably failed a lot more and a lot bigger than anybody who hasn’t really achieved much in their life.
It may be a common sense answer, but a lot of people are just too afraid to try. Now, I would still say that, don’t just go out there and do what I did, which is — maybe I got a little too exuberant and too extreme with my business, going all over the country, buying properties, where I should have just focused on the local market and just done one deal at a time.
So I would just say, be careful; especially, be careful with leverage. Leverage is a beautiful thing. Up until recently, you’ve been able to get some amazing loans, and the loans are good if you use them correctly, but if you miscalculate, or do what you’re not supposed to do with your rehabs or your repairs, then you can get in trouble. So, don’t be afraid to try, but also do as much homework as you can.
And use mentors. That was probably my biggest problem, is that I didn’t have somebody to guide me through it. I’m a do-it-yourself kind of guy, and sometimes, that’s my weakness; I need, sometimes, to just follow until I get better.
SB: Do you think that there was probably some apprehension about doing your very first flip? Do you think that once you did it, that maybe, what happened is that it was so exciting to you, that you just decided, let me just do more?
CS: That’s a good point. Someone put it like this for me before: if you make money in your first deal, that’s a bad thing. You have to be afraid, because if you make money on your first deal, a lot of times — it might be beginners’ luck and you think you’re invincible at that point. Maybe I had some of that. I made a quick $30,000 on the first deal on Calloway. Sure, I had to get into a property, but what happened is, that other property was not such a good buy. I was acting out of desperation at that point, and at the same time, I thought, no problem, even though I’m buying it at more than I really should be buying it, as a wise investor, I thought, I’ll still find a way to resell it, because I was so excited about my first success.
SB: Yeah. The other reason I’ve been tuning in — and I’m not calling necessarily to advertise for my dad, but I’ve been working on his blog, and he is a realtor. He’s been in the business for over 50 years, and he’s in a small suburb outside of Detroit, Michigan. Right now, you’ve heard about Detroit and the subprime situation, and how houses there are cheaper than cars.
So my question to you is, is location everything, or do you think there is promise for people that want to invest in areas like that, where the economy is depressed. But there’s super-good deals, you know. I just wonder who would you expect to buy the homes in an economy like that, or if you have any insight as to whether you think location was key, or it’s not key; it just depends on your skill level in picking out the right type of property in a given place.
CS: Sure. Let me address that, and then I’m going to go to the next person, because everybody will jump on me for that. Let me just tell you from my limited experience. You can make money in an up market or a down market. For example, my local Rich Dad — he’s the father of my high school friend — I’ve been watching them make a lot of money in the last down market. I was talking to him, and what he said is, if you know how to buy right, which is — you have to buy cheap in a down market; really, really cheap — so that way, you can turn around, repair that thing, and put it back on the market at a very aggressive price. You can’t try to sell it for retail.
Basically, what I’m trying to say — you can make money in a down market; you just have to be very careful. Especially in a down market, you have to find yourself surrounded with mentors and work with people who have done it before. Don’t work with people who have only known how to make money in upswings. A lot of people are speculators. True, I was kind of being speculative myself on some of the deals.
Don’t give up. Even if your market’s in a correction right now, it’s a great time to get your skills ready, because you know what? Soon that correction’s going to reverse. Everything’s a cycle. Even if it comes down for a few more years, get yourself in position, surround yourself with money partners, and then you’ll be ready to snap up deals and wait until they start appreciating.
Even in a down market, you can make money as a wholesaler by simply finding deals for other investors. That’s a way to get started with no money down.
By the way, maybe your realtor connection there; maybe we can talk about some deals in Detroit. I haven’t looked at it very closely, but I heard there’s some sweet deals to be had out there.
SB: Oh, yeah; definitely, and in some really upscale, very nice neighborhoods. Recently, a guy got a house that was worth over $500,000 in one of the most prestigious neighborhoods to live in, in Michigan, and he got the house for like $120,000. Those are the kind of things that are happening there.
CS: Well, you know, if you’re going to do flipping in a down market, here’s the biggest thing. Buying is going to be easy. There’s tons of people giving houses away, including myself. You come to me; I’ll give you my houses away. Just take them over, or whatever; save me from foreclosure. So, buying is not going to be the hard part. Selling is the tough part. You have to get really good at selling your properties, and in a down market, you probably don’t want to buy anything that’s not a first-time-buyer home.
Even in a down market, first-time buyers are willing to buy, because they want to get into their first home. They’re not as sensitive, in terms of the market upswings and downswings. I have a friend right now who’s looking for a home, and he’s not too sensitive on if I get him a great deal or not, as long as he can get into a home, and I can help him find something and help him finance it, he’ll be happy to buy.
So, in a down market, I think the way to make money as a real estate flipper or fix-and-flip investor is you have to have a pool of buyers before you start doing your deals. Then you simply match up buyers to properties almost like an agent, but you’re actually acting as an investor. You find the right deal for them, and fix it up. You can even ask them what color carpet that want, and really have your buyer lined up, just like the builders do. They take a deposit before they build the home, and I think that’s a smart way to go as a real estate investor or fix-and-flip.
SB: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the suggestions that my father had, is that people don’t realize how important it is to work with an honest realtor. There are a lot of dishonest people in all stages of the business; mortgage lending —
CS: What’s your — you said that your uncle — or your dad — what’s his name, and what’s his website address? Nothing wrong with a little bit of a plug here.
SB: His name is Willie C. Williams, and his website is www.redcarpettimewillcooperate.com. We have a link to your blog.
CS: Great. Thanks for that, and thanks for calling in. Hopefully, that could be useful for somebody who wants to invest in some Detroit deals.
SB: Okay. All right. I’m wishing you much success. Like I said, you’re young. Don’t give up. You have plenty of room to grow, and I really think your attitude of wanting to share the triumphs as well as the low times in your life is the type of attitude that people have to have in order to build credibility. At some point, all of these people that are really down on you — you never know; things will turn around and they’ll see that you’ve grown a lot, and then they’ll want to listen to you, because they know what you were honest enough to tell them about your flaws; that you would be equally honest enough to try to inspire and help them. That’s my message to you.
CS: Thank you. I appreciate that message. That’s what I’ve been trying to do. I appreciate those kind words. I’m telling you — it’s very rare to get some kind words like this, publicly. I do get some encouraging e-mails, but it seems like — well, you know how it is. You’ve seen my comments. Thank you, Sandra.
BS: Okay. Thank you. Goodbye.
CS: Okay, we’ll just take a few more questions. Might as well keep going. We have some new people on. I might as well give them a shot.
It looks like the new people came off. We’ll give Steven another shot. Steven, are you still there?
SC2K2: Casey, I just gotta tell you –
CS: Am I doing any better, by the way, or it is still –
SC2K2: No, no. You’re doing horribly. You let me ramble on too long last time, which, you know, whatever, but –
CS: Well, I don’t like to cut people off. Do you like to be cut off?
SC2K2: No, but you gotta do it. It’s –
CS: I guess you have to do that in radio.
SC2K2: — a radio show. You have to get the question, get in, and get out; but, I’m so — I just can’t handle how brainwashed you’ve been by all those seminars.
CS: Oh, yeah?
SC2K2: The way you make money in a down market, is you wait for the prices to bottom; you by in paying very little; and then you sell when they’ve gone way up. Yeah, your Rich Dad probably –
CS: That’s the long-term strategy. Are you saying you can’t do quick flips on the way down?
SC2K2: You know, Casey, there’s no way you would be able to handle quick flips. You shown nothing but a [inaudible] ineptitude –
CS: Well, maybe –
SC2K2: — with this kind of real estate. This is was in a — you’ve tried doing it in an up market, and then, as the market turned, you just kept buying more. You’re too impulsive. You don’t have a killer instinct. You don’t have what it takes to succeed in this line of work; and the more I hear how brainwashed you are, I feel really bad for you.
CS: Well — you ever done real estate investing before?
SC2K2: Yeah. I’ve had some real success, too.
CS: Okay. You mean doing the fix-and-flip-type projects, or long-term holding?
CS: Great, great. Well, sounds like you’re talking from experience, and I appreciate your input. Definitely, my impulsivity is something I need to work on. It could be a good thing, but lately it’s been kind of a weakness.
SC2K2: I’m just glad you don’t work in a nuclear silo.
CS: (Laughs) Yeah, that’s right. Well, Steven, we’re going to have a transcription of this, hopefully later on. I have somebody who’s going to help me, so, people that think it’s going on for too long will be able to read it later. I just wanted to get a few more questions in.
You have anything else real quick, Steven?
SC2K2: Yeah, a question about your family. I saw some pictures of your family with pretty offensive statements about them. Have they seen these? I feel really bad for them; I feel like they’ve gotten dragged into this mess with you.
CS: Yeah. This is an unfortunate part of this whole exposure. First of all, like I said before, I never realized it was going to get this big. I never realized the extent some of these people go to, in order to dig up my past, and honestly, make me look really bad; and not just me, but everybody connected to me. It’s become a real liability. Unfortunately, at this point, if I stop blogging and try to go away, there’s going to be a period of time, where, because of the way Google works, my site will start losing ranking. Then I run the risk of allowing those critic sites to be on top of me, and I won’t even have a chance to answer to some of these things. So, I’ve kind of been [inaudible], so I can somewhat control what’s being said by being the first hit.
SC2K2: Are you related to Mark Hamill, who played Luke Skywalker in the original Star Wars trilogy?
CS: (Laughs) No. Does it look like it?
CS: Okay. All right, Steven. Thanks for participating.
CS: We’ll go on to another caller here. It looks like somebody just came on, PaigeDaddy. PaigeDaddy, are you there? PaigeDaddy is not there.
PaigeDaddy (PD): Oh, hey, how’s it going?
CS: Oh, you’re there. Go ahead. Where are you from?
PD: Las Vegas.
CS: All right. Good market there. How’s the market doing out there? Is everything like we are? It seems pretty badly; that’s what I’m hearing.
PD: Well, here’s the thing. I mean, I actually came across — I don’t even know what I was Googling today — I came across your blog and I was reading it extensively. Unfortunately I just got on the call, so I just missed all the other stuff that was going on in the call, but I just wanted to preface that first of all, regardless of the so-called “mistakes” that you made, I mean, there’s a lot of, call them “lazy ass” people out there that talk and talk and talk and don’t do anything. So failure or not, you’re already way ahead of the game because now you know what not to do next time.
The second thing is, and in Las Vegas like any other major city or any city in the country, there’s deals everywhere; you just have to look. Overall, 50 or 52 percent of people from California were the top real estate buyers here in the last few years, but — so call it the “investor swarm” came here, kind of inflated the prices up, and then basically when there was way too many houses on the market the investor swarm went away. So there hasn’t been as giant of gains if you just bought brand new property at retail prices, per say, but now it’s a huge buyer’s market here. I mean there’s builders paying real estate agents 12 percent to 14 percent commissions just to bring them buyers.
CS: Are they doing any cash back deals, incentives?
PD: Basically if you know what you’re doing you can get not only an awesome builder incentive deal you can get $10,000 or $12,000 back from the agent. I mean, so –
CS: Really? From the agent even? Wow.
PD: Well, yeah, if you know that they’re getting a 12 to 14 percent commission, however that get split down, even the builders have their own in-house people, but certain builders will pay the outside agent. I mean, if you know that, obviously you can use that to your advantage because why make an agent filthy rich for not really doing anything anyways? But, yeah, again, I just wanted to say in any city in the country it doesn’t matter what the market’s doing, there’s always people that need to get rid of a problem. And, again, I’ll have to read the transcripts of the call or listen to the after-recording because I just got on the call, so I’m sorry I missed the first hour plus.
CS: No problem, no problem. Do you have any questions or do you have a comment to anybody out there who is either facing foreclosure or watching somebody face foreclosure?
PD: Well I guess a comment I would say, I don’t want to reveal how much real estate I’ve been involved with but a lot of them have been property flips over the past five to seven years and not only in the Las Vegas market but in another market where I’m originally from. And I guess from a strategy standpoint if you focus on, I guess, higher equity flips where if the market does do something time is on your side, it just eats away your profit, but I guess comments are people that are going through foreclosure it may seem like the end of the world at the time to some people, but life goes on.
CS: Yeah, exactly.
PD: I know it’s tough. I know in your situation — I know the pressure and I have a lot of friends that have felt the pressure that you’re going through now and you have all this real estate and all of a sudden cash flow dries up and, oh my god.
CS: Yeah. Now I’m real curious, have you been a situation like this personally? When you were starting out did you make some mistakes? Do you have a particular one to share with us?
PD: Basically I can tell you when I started out I was methodical. I was actually 24 when I did my first real estate deal, and when I did my first one I was like, “Why didn’t I start this earlier?” And so the first handful were very methodical and then, of course, you kind of get the deal bug.
CS: Yeah, I hear you.
PD: I am very good at spotting value and you get too many at the same time — I mean, you’re obviously going through this — you get too many at the same time and you’re not a number cruncher, kind of from a business perspective, I ran into the same problem early on in, call it my investing career, which wasn’t full time. I mean, call it a part time thing, but I guess a comment is just — I guess don’t be afraid to try. I always did joint ventures with people to kind of spread the risk, per say, but I guess a comment is people that are in foreclosure, it’s not the end of the world. I mean, just some other would be or wannabe investors out there, again, I’m not claiming to be a super-specificated investor but I’ve done several dozen property deals over probably a five to seven year period and there were some awesome winners and there were some hard losers, but the point is the only way you’re going to ever learn is doing.
CS: That’s right. And you have to try. And, yes, some people fail, I mean, not fail right away, but there’s always going to be times where you might make mistakes, as with any business. Now I’m curious, in your experience as a flipper have you ever structure a loan where you got some cash back for your repairs or for your payments or any kind of a seller credit back for that kind of thing?
PD: I’d rather not comment on any of that.
CS: Sure. Sure. I don’t want to put you in a corner. But if you do want to comment on it, I’m curious what your experience has been with stated income loans or any of these loans that — “shady loans” — what is your personal experience of what’s going on in the investor community.
PD: Well basically, I have a lot of friends that are real estate agents, realtors, mortgage brokers, and the problem is that looking at it from a mortgage broker standpoint for a second — that’s flawed from the beginning. I mean, they’re getting paid a commission not only on the front end but they’re getting paid on the back end with the yield spread premium which most people don’t even know about. They’re kind of getting double paid and yet the bank comes back and says, “This is the interest rate they’re going to get,” and of course they know they can jack that up a little bit and get you to commit to a pre-payment penalty that they just put thousands of more dollars in their pocket. Just the whole mortgage broker system — it’s both good and bad but I’m saying it’s kind of flawed because they want to get deals closed because they don’t get paid unless they deals closed.
But, yeah, I mean, again in Las Vegas like in every other major market there’s a lot of headlines and a lot of people getting into trouble because of obviously different stuff. But from a homeowner standpoint, on the flip side, most people are — I mean, we’re built on a credit society so when lenders started creating all these really creative loan programs with stated loan and no doc loans, interest only loans, adjustable rate mortgages, all this stuff, it just created more people buying a lot bigger house than they can afford and unfortunately — I know from your standpoint you know all this because you’ve immersed yourself in the real estate business, but again I know there’s probably a lot of savvy, seasoned, sophisticated investors out there that —
Again, when I got on the call, the gentleman that was just talking to you it sounded pretty harsh right when I chimed in on the call.
CS: Yeah, well, welcome to my blog.
PD: I’ve got to give you a lot of credit. Hopefully nothing serious happens to you personally from all the information that you’re sharing, but there’s quite a few ideas that I have to share with you. Obviously I won’t share them on this call, but is there a way that you could be contacted some way, some how?
CS: Yeah. You can send me an email. On the blog you can click a link on the top right, on the sidebar it says “E-mail Casey.” And that’s private. I don’t put that anywhere so you can go ahead and do that. And also, my phone number is on my personal site which is Serin.us. If you just click my name on the blog it will take you to that website.
PD: Okay. And basically — again, I’ll keep this stuff.
CS: Yeah, you can leave the other stuff for a private conversation. Now what’s your experience, in closing, since I don’t get too many people that have actually been doing flipping, what would you say to people — say, fix and flippers, the ones that are in it for a quick deal — are inflating the market and pricing regular home buyers out of the market?
PD: That’s kind of a loaded question. I mean, basically if something’s worth 100 percent when it’s fixed up, and you find something for a hell of a lot less and you just have to use some sweat, equity, and some knowhow and strategic spending to get the house fixed up where you can make a decent profit, that in my opinion, in my definition, is not inflating the market. Where the market obviously gets inflated are the people that really want to get the loan and the values get inflated to adjust for the debt to income ration and down payments, etc.
Or the investor swarms, i.e. from your neck of the woods, come into the cities like Las Vegas and other cities. That’s more inflating the values, but banks and lenders are not stupid. So if there’s some clause in the process sometimes with stuff that’s where the problem lies sometimes. Again, the banks and the lenders aren’t going to make money if they don’t make loans.
CS: That makes sense.
PD: They’re taking risks too.
CS: Thanks a lot for calling in and giving your view. Feel free to contact me. I’m going to go on to the next question. Thank you.
PD: Sure. Thanks, Casey.
CS: Okay. It looks like there’s just a couple of people left and this thing is probably winding down here. I need to give you guys a chance here again. Gordon, do you have anything else? GordonSanders?
GordonSanders (GDS): Hey, Casey. I was kind of taking a few notes and I’ve got two or three questions I’ll just try to string together. First off, CashCall; they’re trying to contact you but you’re avoiding them. They’re eventually going to get a hold of you. They’re either going to serve you with a writ of — I mean, sue you, and then they’ll get a judgment, then they’ll get a writ, then they’ll go show up at a writ of execution because if you dodge the court then they win by default. They’re going to win by default anyway. And then they’re going to show up at your house, what you’re saying is your business, and start grabbing stuff. So I kind of want to know what’s going to happen there.
You mentioned in one of your blogs, a long time ago, that WaMu was one of your credit cards and I know that Washington Mutual lets you check your FICO because you showed that on your blog, what’s your FICO right now?
You said impulsiveness is good. I haven’t seen anything of your actions that shows that anything that you’ve done impulsive is good at all because you’re upside down and you’re getting by without being responsible for your actions.
CS: Sure. I’ll address those three things. Do you have anything else?
GSD: Once you address those I’ve got about three more because I know there’s other people waiting.
CS: Sure. That’s fine. Yeah, we’ll go with CashCall first. Yes, I understand kind of how the process works. I’ve never been in it. I’ve been on the other side of it where I had a renter that wasn’t paying me so I was thinking of going through that process, suing him in small claims court, so I kind of know the next step that I might be facing here and that’s definitely something I’m considering. What would you say I could do at this point if, let’s say I don’t have the money to pay them right now? What can I do to avoid any further escalation?
GDS: That’s for you to talk to an attorney about. But the fact is that once they get a judgment against you and once they file a writ of execution with the sheriff — I filed a writ with someone and the sheriff showed up and started taking computers from this place.
GDS: I mean, they show up to collect whatever money they need.
CS: I’d better handle it quick because if they’re going to a legal department now, that means they’re going to go collect at this point and who knows how much time I have.
GDS: Yeah. I think everybody says you need to speak to an attorney. What’s your FICO now?
CS: I actually don’t know because I haven’t logged into Washington Mutual in a while and I probably should have done that before this call, but last time I checked it was in the high 400′s, 490 I believe or something along those lines. It might be lower now because I’m going to have two official foreclosures showing up on my record any time.
GDS: Well, it doesn’t go below 450, so it doesn’t get much –
CS: It might be interesting to see if I might be a person that actually gets a 450 FICO score. I might be one of the few amongst some of my friends. I’m hoping other people don’t do the same thing I did.
Okay, next thing, impulsiveness. Well I’m curious what you’re personality is like. You’re probably not a very impulsive person if that’s the kind of question you’re asking. You’re probably more calculated, more conservative, right?
GDS: No, man, I’m not. I do a lot of things and I see more of myself in you than you probably realize.
CS: Oh, yeah?
GDS: I’m just saying that impulsiveness — you haven’t done any of your actions that you’ve done. I mean, it’s one thing to be impulsive, it’s another thing to be smart and impulsive.
CS: Yeah, I hear you.
GDS: A four-year-old’s impulsive. An adult can be impulsive but he still realizes that you get ticked off at someone, you shoot him; now you’ve got to face those consequences. That impulsiveness doesn’t work. Instead of having a gun, you had a checkbook. You’re still responsible.
CS: I hear you. And, you know, that’s what it comes down to is self-control. When you’re an impulsive personality you have to realize that that can be a weakness if you’re not able to control it, and if you’re that same personality then you know what that’s like. Now, tell me, wouldn’t you agree with me that an impulsive person — and if you’re that person you will know — is more likely to take on an opportunity than a conservative person? So an impulsive personality is definitely one that jumps on deals when they come up, takes advantage of trends, and takes advantage of things that normally a person would spend days or years or weeks calculating and miss out on opportunity. For example, instead of just going quietly into the night I decided to start a blog about it. That was a very impulsive decision; I didn’t really talk to anybody about what the pros and cons might be. I just started writing my story. That was impulsive and I’m not sure if it was a positive or negative net effect, starting this blog, but I definitely have seen a lot of positive that’s come out of it. And we’re going to see in the next months and years what really I did by starting this blog, because there’s a lot of things that are coming out. Now what do you think of those qualities as an impulsive person?
GDS: Well I think I just saw you wrote about Robert Kiyosaki’s video the other day and you felt really good about it, but the first thing I noticed was that he called you a greater fool. Then he turns around and says, you know what, if you dig yourself out of this, then you’ll have done well and you can offer other people advice. If you don’t dig yourself out of this, he said pick another line of work.
CS: Well I guess I’ll have to look at that then.
GDS: I mean, you need to go back and re-look at that because I didn’t see anything good about that except him laughing at you often and making fun of you. Now I realize that it was a good opportunity and all that, I think if you looked at in different eyes you might see something otherwise.
CS: Yeah, of course. There’s two things that came out of that. He definitely had some criticism to dish out and many people have noticed it and I’ve noticed it too. At the same time he was also very encouraging of me telling my story and being honest about my mistakes and so that’s definitely an impulsive move. A conservative, careful person is not going to go all over the internet sharing those mistakes. Maybe it was a bad thing for me to do, but at the same time I’ve had tons of feedback saying they appreciate that because that made a difference because people see what not to do and people see some of the things they can do in a situation like this.
GDS: I see what you’re saying but I also see the fact that you’re saying that you are acknowledging your mistakes.
GDS: But all you’re doing is stating your mistakes, you’re not trying to correct those mistakes. It’s a kid saying, “I didn’t intend to break the mirror with the hammer.” And then they break the next mirror with the hammer, “I didn’t intend to do that.” And you hit the next mirror with the hammer, “I didn’t intend to do that.” Instead of –
CS: Sure, sure, no, I hear you.
GDS: I mean, acknowledging mistakes is one thing, but acknowledging mistakes and being sorry for it and trying to make amends, that’s the adult side of it that you always seem to be dodging.
CS: Okay. I definitely respect your opinion on that. Now would you say it’s a step above a person who’s denying their mistakes or not even acknowledging them?
GDS: Well I don’t see — there’s a fine line between acknowledging your mistake and sticking your head in the sand, and sticking your head in the sand period. There’s not much difference. But if you acknowledge, “Hey, I screwed up and I want to make it right, and I’m going to face the consequences and pay the people and talk to the people.” Everyone’s dodged a creditor at one time or another; I agree with you on that one.
But the fact is that everyone that talks to you says, “Dude, it’s not a smart move. You need to face up to it.” And you keep bragging about –
CS: Yeah, and check this out, and I don’t need to convince you of this, but if a person is looking at something from afar they don’t realize, “Oh, yeah, they own it; they’re involved.” For example I’ll give you one quick example, people would tell me to just go ahead and file bankruptcy when I first started off. Now do you think that was the responsible thing or not? Well check this out, if I was to file bankruptcy I would have not had a chance to at least try to do a short sale and find a way to pay those lenders back, or try to find a way to do something. Bankruptcy means that’s it, I’m out. And to me I wanted to at least do something. So that’s an example that I’d like to say that I’m doing something positive, at least attempting to sell those properties.
GDS: Yeah, I don’t see that you learned anything because the short sales, you talked to a realtor about. You spent so much time trying to find somebody that would even do a short sale for you anyway, but let’s get past that. You qualified for a lot of loans, $2.2 million of loans within a couple of months. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that somebody making $50,000 a year won’t qualify for a $500,000 house. Somebody making $50,000 a year won’t quality for a $250,000 house. Somebody making $50,000 a year barely qualifies for a $125,000 and most likely a $100,000 house. You didn’t just overstate your income by 10 or 15 percent; you couldn’t have.
CS: Now that particular house, the one in Rio Rancho, I was applying right after I quit my job, so I was running that one I believe as a self-employed real estate investor. And so based on that the income stating range was much higher so I was able to do it that way.
GDS: Yeah, but just earlier in this conversation you said that you — I wouldn’t have doubled or tripled my salary, I would have maybe adjusted it by a little bit.
CS: Yeah, that’s when I was working at Pride Industries. Now when I was already on my own I was seeing money coming in. For example, taking out $30,000 on one of the deals and some of the other deals were coming my way. The money was definitely coming in, so to me it made sense.
GDS: But that wasn’t income that was money that you were using for something else. It was already pre-used. I mean, you can’t claim that it’s –
CS: Yeah, you’re right. Technically it was a loan. At the same time, if I’m able to sell that then it ends up being income. So it was early take out of the profit; that’s the way I saw it. Now whether it was right or wrong to see it, that’s a different story. I’m just telling you how I was looking at it at the time.
GDS: Right. So you’re saying that on some of your applications you probably said you were making $250,000 or $300,000?
CS: That was probably the case unless that was one of the ones I did a no doc loan because one of them I didn’t state anything; I was just able to qualify. It was a higher interest rate but I love those no doc loans, they’re the best because you’re never stating anything so no one can ever go back and say you were lying on your application.
GDS: Well you had to put in some amount. I think your cell phone’s cutting out. Also, the passive income that you keep on wanting to talk about getting, I don’t see anything you’re doing that’s passive other than dodging the creditors because the passive income — you have to work for every bit of this. Why not have rental property, $60,000 $100,00 houses, with a 40 to 50 month payout and do section 8 housing? That’s passive income.
GDS: Something’s breaking up but I heard you mention something about a high growth fund. But the fact is that if you were to have a rental property with a 40 to 50 months payout, after five years you’ve got equity. You own the house. And then that is passive income.
CS: That’s what I was referring to. Can you hear me okay now?
GDS: Yeah, that’s fine.
CS: Okay, what I was trying to say is I was doing fix-and-flip in order to raise capital because I didn’t have any, and then once I had enough cash to put a down payment, say, on some long-term holds or maybe an apartment complex, that was going to be my passive income.
GDS: You’re trying to generate capital to do this stuff when you could have started off buying one house and making the renter pay your mortgage payment.
CS: Sure. I could have done passive income getting one at a time over a long span of time. I just wanted to shortcut it by raising capital quickly by doing fix-and-flip.
GDS: But you would have bought — there’s not much difference other than the fact of the dollars of the homes you bought. Everything that you’re saying right now says, “I intentionally bought six houses within two months because I was trying to raise a bunch of money.”
CS: Well, yeah, I was looking to buy then wholesale, fix them up, sell them at retail, make a spread, and once I had enough money saved up then I could put it into something that was more of a passive income, maybe an apartment complex or rental homes. So, yeah, it’s a different strategy. Some people just believe in buy and hold in real estate and they wait until it appreciates naturally. Some people do sweat equity and forced appreciation by fixing up and reselling quickly, and that’s what I was looking to do.
GDS: Okay, you mentioned the sweat equity. Tell me about the sweat equity you did in your houses because I don’t see any? I see you taking a lot of money out.
CS: It’s easy to look at a house after the person ran out of cash to do the repairs. I wasn’t doing the repairs myself, okay, I was hiring people to do it and I’ve done quite a bit of work to a lot of those properties. For example, the Modesto property; if you would have seen pictures before and the way it is now you would see a big improvement. So they were in various stages of repairs. Some I was able to finish up before the money ran out, some of it I didn’t finish up. And, yeah, there’s an argument that can be made, people are saying I should go over there and clean up the place or something while they’re just sitting there. That is a valid argument. At the same time, I’m busy with other stuff and, yes, some of that is free, but to me it just didn’t make sense sticking more time and money into a property that already I don’t have money for. Otherwise I’m borrowing more to try to save something that might get foreclosed on. So that was my rationale on that.
GDS: Well it looks like some other people are waiting, but I’m glad that you finally mentioned that you were just trying to buy a bunch of houses in just a short period of time to generate a lot of money because I think that’s what a lot of us were assuming, but it’s good to have conversation.
CS: Yeah, if I was looking to hold those properties I would have never bought such expensive properties because the rent don’t cover the mortgages. But, see, that was probably the mistake I made. If I was doing a fix and flip on a lower price range, at least my plan B would have been to rent them out, but see what happened was I was buying higher priced properties, I got stuck, and I couldn’t rent them out. And so here I am now.
GDS: All right, well go ahead and take the other callers and good luck.
CS: Sure, sounds good. We have this one interesting line came on. We have Walter from — WalterCashCall. Go ahead WalterCashCall. Are you there Walter?
WalterCashCall (WCC): Yes.
CS: How you doing?
WCC: I’m doing fine, yourself?
CS: Doing great.
WCC: Listen, I just want to ask you, you keep using the phrase “fix-and-flip.” You never actually fixed anything that I can see from your accounts on your website.
CS: Did you not see the “before” pictures on my Flickr account of all those properties?
WCC: I didn’t bother to page through all those, man, you’ve got too much stuff in that.
CS: Sure, no problem. Perhaps I should show people the “before” and then you’ll see that there were definitely improvements on a lot of them.
WCC: Yeah, I’m still not buying it, man. I mean, I saw some of the nasty toilets. You had a place a homeless guy was living in. I mean, they weren’t — you never did anything.
CS: Well the homeless guy wasn’t living inside, he was inside of a car on my driveway.
WCC: He probably didn’t even want to live in there.
CS: That particular house was a nice house. It’s move-in ready, there’s nothing wrong with it. That one we actually did fix up really nice. The kitchen was brand new. It was just overpriced. My mortgage is too high on it.
WCC: Okay. I guess we’re just going to agree to disagree because based on what I saw, those places were crap. So better luck next time.
CS: Okay, thanks. That was Walter from — well, he’s not from CashCall, but I like the user name there. Okay, we’ll go with — let’s see, do we have anybody new here? We have Nacho. Nacho, how are you doing?
NACHO: Casey, my man, how are you doing?
CS: I’m doing great. How are you doing, Nacho, where are you from?
NACHO: I’m doing good. I’m from Southern California.
CS: Southern California. A good place to be.
NACHO: It is beautiful down here. Listen, I have a question. I know a lot of people are wondering — what’s up with the murse? Can you give us some suggestions on where we go to buy it, how much they cost, which side, left or right, we carry it on?
CS: Sure, sure. This is the second version of it. I used to have another one made by Guess – Guess Jeans. That was a really good one, but then that one got dirty because I wear it all the time, and this one my wife actually bought for me as a gift because I really miss my version number one. But you know what, there’s different kinds out there, you just have to look around, find what works for you. It can’t be too big, it’s gotta be just the right size; and it can’t have too many open pockets because I found myself losing pens and losing my PDA which would just keep flying out. This new one I have completely zips up so I can actually run with it if I’m — you know, trying to run away from somebody or catch somebody.
NACHO: So it’s sort of like Goldilocks and the Three Bears – you know, not too big, not too small, right?
CS: Yeah, there you go – you got it.
NACHO: Which side do you traditionally wear it on, the left or the right?
CS: It’s normally on my right, cause I’m right-handed so I can reach over and grab my PDA or my digital camera, when those –
NACHO: What’s in the murse? That’s what we need to know. What do you carry in it? Is it a Jack Bauer bag of tricks or what?
CS: What was that?
NACHO: Is it your Jack Bauer bag of tricks and stuff? Do you have, like, C-4 and stuff in there? [inaudible] or ammunition?
CS: I can’t tell you everything that’s in it. Okay, how about this, I’ll just tell you some of the contents, because I can’t talk about every single thing in there. We got the digital camera, that takes the famous pictures. We got the PDA that’s also my cell phone, so I can get online and moderate comments.
CS: We have a Hacky Sack when I get bored.
NACHO: Oh, that’s nice, that’s nice.
CS: And what else do we have? We have a notepad to write down notes when I’m talking to people. And we have —
NACHO: And do you, like, bird-dog sweet deals? When you’re trying to bird-dog sweet deals, do you take —
CS: Oh exactly, when I’m talking to the mailman, he gives me a sweet deal with the tip.
NACHO: OKAY, how about the Utah wrap? Any resolutions?
CS: I said earlier in the call that, you know, I just haven’t had the chance to finish that up. But it’s still out there —
NACHO: Don’t you think you should? I think that’s worth a good hour or two, don’t you think? I really do, I think it’s good for the people that —
CS: OKAY, you know what, I’ll take full blame for it. It is my fault for not taking care of it. There’s really no justification on that one.
NACHO: And I appreciate — and it’s good; it’s good that you want to take full blame and all, but are you actually going to take some action and do something about it? Because that’s really — you know, talk is cheap, but it’s the follow-through that’s really important. Seriously.
CS: Yeah, exactly. Thanks for that advice.
NACHO: You’re welcome. So what about G? I know she quit school, right?
CS: Yeah, she quit school. Just recently – we’re talking yesterday.
NACHO: Did she get a refund on her tuition?
CS: I don’t think so, as far as I know. We need to look into that.
NACHO: Maybe she can get —
CS: But it wasn’t because we can’t afford it – some viewers were saying oh, she quit because we can’t afford it. No, it was already prepaid, so it was a really tough decision. But she’s going to be helping me out because it’s really tough for me to do all this stuff on my own. And now she’s just — she really wanted to work on her degree, because she wanted to be able to in the future help us out by getting a job. But the thing is, without much education, it’s hard to get anything highly paid. But at this point we just need to do whatever we gotta do.
NACHO: Do you think she’s starting to resent the fact that she had to quit school and go to work to help you guys out financially?
CS: Hey, you know what, that might be part of it. We’re going to have to deal with that issue.
NACHO: But is that affecting you in the bedroom?
NACHO: Hey, people want to know!
CS: Surprisingly, none of this is affecting it, no.
NACHO: Oh nice, nice. So Casey’s getting some! Good for you.
OKAY, about your hair. How much do you spend on highlights in your hair, and how often do you get it cut? We need to know!
CS: This one’s from about a year ago, it’s been growing out really long, and I got highlights back in — when I was in Rio Rancho — sorry, when I was in Albuquerque last year trying to sell that Sonora property which I sold in an auction, which was really a fun sale. That was one of my successful deals, and I ended up getting highlights there because — well, you know, it’s something you gotta do sometimes, to change your look.
NACHO: So do you feel compelled at all to pay any of your credit card debt off?
CS: Well, of course, it’s not like I’m saying I want to pay off every dirty penny just to make it sound good.
NACHO: But like I said earlier, it’s one thing to say you want to do something, but another thing to take some action, you know?
CS: I know, I have a little bit of a history for saying one thing and not doing anything about it, so I don’t blame you. But at the same time, I thought at the beginning it would be such an awesome story, a comeback story and show so much success to be able to pay everything back, but at the same time I think I had a bit of a wishful thinking going on, because I didn’t realize when I first started what kind of a hole I was in. The hole’s so big that at this point, I’m really out of options.
NACHO: I know, I know, but you know what, you fill up a bucket one drop at a time, you know what I mean? You have to look at it that way.
CS: Yeah, but here’s what’s going to happen. I pay a credit card — even fifty bucks — that doesn’t do anything to the collection process. Here’s what happens: it’s going to go and get discharged, and then they’re going to try to sue me and try to get that money. So that fifty bucks could have been used better in something where I can actually make money, perhaps doing another deal –
NACHO: Or maybe to go on a snowboarding trip? Well, maybe you could spend it there!
NACHO: I mean, come on, think about that, though. Don’t you feel bad doing those things knowing that you have debts to pay?
Oh, good question, trash. Have you been taking the trash out regularly?
CS: Are you the one that reminds me every time on the blog?
NACHO: No, I’m not. I’m T, I’m T. I’m the one who offered to help you with the Utah wrap.
CS: Well, OKAY, you know — [inaudible] trust.
NACHO: Well, I gave you my work details, so how much more do you need to trust me?
CS: Well, you know how it is. I get so many calls and so many people are trying to play pranks on me. If you were in my position, you’d know what I’m talking about.
NACHO: I understand.
CS: But with the trash, I’ve been okay. I’d say about 75 percent success. There’s been a couple of times I’ve seen the trash truck on its way and I’m running out the door to try to get the trash can out, and there were once or twice when I missed it. But I’m doing pretty good, I think.
NACHO: Do you and Nigel Swaby – do you guys have a flirtatious relationship?
NACHO: You know, is there maybe a bit of bi-curiousness there? People want to know.
CS: Which way do you swing?
NACHO: I like men, I like men. Big strong men.
CS: Well, all right. I guess the name says it all, Nacho. But, anyway –
NACHO: Nacho is my cat.
CS: There’s nothing going on. Look, he’s married, I’m married, he’s a blogger, I just wanted to talk with him about some possibilities for the future, so there’s nothing going on. But people don’t believe me, people make their own assumptions, so —
NACHO: Yeah, that was a joke, I was just kidding. But he seems a little shystie, Casey, he seems like he’s grabbing onto your coattails. How do you feel about that? I don’t think that he’s really a solid guy. But then again –
CS: Well, if there’s something coming back, I don’t mind, some of the traffic and all that. So if it’s a win-win relationship, it’s all good.
NACHO: Win-win! Drink! We’re kind of joking – all your anti-spam words, everybody’s having a drink every time you say one, so —
CS: Yeah, they keep repeating them back to me. I guess those anti-spam words became a hit.
NACHO: Yeah, they’re pretty popular.
CS: Hey, do you have any more things to say? By the way, I do like the name Nacho.
NACHO: That’s my cat. My cat’s name is Nacho. I didn’t think you’d take my call if I put my real name. So anyway — Jamba Juice – what’s your favorite flavor?
CS: You know what? Jamba Juice overall is not as healthy as people might think. It’s definitely better than drinking Coke, but most of that stuff’s frozen, and even though it’s all natural, meaning there’s no added sugar, I like my stuff fresh out of the juicer. So the only thing I really drink there is wheatgrass shots. I also do freshly squeezed OJ and freshly squeezed carrot juice.
NACHO: Wheatgrass — does it give you gas? People want to know.
CS: [inaudible] — jitters — you should try it, you know, it has a nice — kind of a sweet aftertaste. It’s kind of an acquired taste, so –
NACHO: Does it give you the runs? Because it looks like it would.
CS: Does it give you what?
NACHO: The runs. Diarrhea.
CS: No, it’s good. Because normally, I spend a little extra time on the toilet, and so wheatgrass comes out. The times I spend extra on the toilet is good because I can moderate my comments on the PDA in downtimes from my busy schedule. But then I still prefer to get the wheatgrass — [inaudible]
NACHO: OKAY, another question. Your phone bill is extremely high. Don’t you think that it would be in your and your creditors’ best interests if you reduced it?
CS: What’s extremely high? I’m sorry.
NACHO: Do you really need to check your comments on your PDA? Really, do you?
CS: Yeah, I check it on there. Because, the thing is, I gotta keep them flowing. People start complaining when I’m not letting them through fast enough. And I tried to get some people to moderate for me, but there are some issues with that. There’s the issue of accountability and who can I trust and that kind of stuff. So, I’ve been trying to do it on my own as much as I can. But things are going to change moving forward. The future of this blog is that there’s going to be less of me. They’ll be more foreclosure help and more credible authors, and I’m going to really take it to the next level with the help of some people.
NACHO: Right. Let’s talk about the hater blog, because you talk about it all the time, like these people are out to get you. Don’t you think that —
CS: They are, yeah.
NACHO: Don’t you think that many people went on to the other site so that their comments could go through, so that they could talk in real-time, because you were taking a really long time to moderate the comments? Don’t you think they just wanted another place to speak the truth?
CS: Sure, and that’s fine. I don’t mind them speaking the truth; but you know how it is, you’ve seen them. Wouldn’t you agree that some of them go overboard? I mean, we’re talking taking pictures of my family and putting some really nasty comments on them, and even modifying some of the pictures. What would it be like if they did that to pictures of your wife and your family?
NACHO: I understand, but that’s why I make sure what I have on my MySpace or whatever is not pictures that people would take and use, and I haven’t infuriated people and made people feel like part of what you did.
CS: I’m honestly surprised at the level of hate out there. I have a friend who’s a blogger, and he says he’s never seen haters this bad before.
NACHO: I have to say this for Dolph, because he gets infuriated when people call us haters. We’re realists, as my Miguel would say, and we just want the truth. And we feel that you’re being shystie and really secretive and you’re not being transparent.
And also, you don’t want to go get a job! You know, go get a job and do this stuff on the side! There’s nothing wrong with that!
CS: Are you saying I don’t have a job right now? I’ve talked about how I’m doing consulting jobs and I have money coming in.
NACHO: So are you, like, going to pay taxes on that money?
CS: Yeah, of course. I’m not doing cash under the table type stuff. I’m not dealing wheatgrass shots on the side here.
NACHO: You’re not?
CS: No, no, no, I mean I like to consume them legally.
NACHO: And I understand you’ve been brainwashed by these gurus; I understand that, Casey. But there’s nothing wrong with a real job; there’s nothing wrong with that. You get promotions, you get increases —
CS: Oh, I’ll be the first one to agree. You know, it’s funny –
NACHO: So, then, why I are you so opposed to getting it?
CS: — because every time I try to say something about a job, every time I say something, and I like to show both sides to people, everybody focuses on the fact that I’m saying the job is bad. I’m not saying the job is bad. In fact, if it wasn’t for a stable job — career –
NACHO: You’re calling the people that work for a living, cube-dwellers and W-2ers and 9-to-5ers, like they’re wasting their life. You know, some people do things that they enjoy. I recently got a promotion, Casey, with a fat increase. That’s nice, you know; that’s nice.
CS: Yeah, that’s really good. When I was working at Pride Industries, I really enjoyed the fact that I had a stable paycheck coming in. It’s just that I got a little too impulsive. I should have kept my full-time job and I still do have money coming in from jobs I’m doing, and I may go back to a full-time job. There’s nothing wrong with it.
NACHO: Why can’t you do those jobs on the side and work full-time as well? Don’t you think that that would be what’s best for your wife?
CS: Are you really saying that everyone who’s a realtor and everyone who’s self-employed should go out and get a full-time job? Are you saying self-employed is not a job?
NACHO: Okay, my friend’s wife is a realtor. She works at Marty Rodriguez Real Estate, which is one of the largest real estate offices in the San Gabriel Valley. And she’s already looking for other work.
CS: Well, that’s fine, not everyone’s going to be successful and self-employed. But don’t you know self-employed doctors or lawyers or successful realtors or anybody who doesn’t have a W-2 but still makes money? It’s not like W-2′s the only…
NACHO: But you haven’t been successful! So isn’t it time to try something else? Supplement your side jobs with a real job.
CS: Well, you know, I never said I’m not going to get one. I’m definitely considering that, and since I do still have money coming in through some of those other sources, it allows me to stay flexible so I can still kind of be in real estate a little bit, and other opportunities.
NACHO: Do you understand that the real estate market is tanking? Do you have a grasp of that?
CS: Oh, yeah. That’s why I’m looking at other investing opportunities, not just real estate.
NACHO: And do you understand that you bought in at the worst possible time? You do understand that, right?
CS: It’s not like you can’t make money in a down market. My local Rich Dad, he made his fortune in the last downturn in California. But of course he had a lot more experience.
NACHO: Did he have decent credit? Was he able to secure loans?
CS: Well, he could secure loans. He had money partners. He had mentors. See, I kind of started off without any mentors guiding me, and that’s kind of one of my problems. And I didn’t have any construction experience.
NACHO: You know what, Casey? I don’t think mentors is your problem. I think you’ve got enough with these guru mentors. I think that that’s the last thing you need. What you need is a swift kick in the ass, from somebody who’s going to tell you the truth. Seriously. Someone who’s going to tell you the truth.
CS: I appreciate you being upfront and giving me a little dose of reality, as you said.
NACHO: Well, that’s how I roll. I’m always trying to keep it real. I’m just trying to let you know, man, that you need to start looking at things differently. You’ve been going a certain way and it’s not working out for you, and you really need to change the way you’re viewing life.
CS: Well, I appreciate it.
NACHO: Because everybody that you owe money to is going to get shafted, and then, in turn, taxpayers are going to have to pay — you know, foot the bill.
NACHO: Are you worried about going to jail?
CS: I’ve already kind of addressed it, but the thing is, if I live my life in fear, what good is that going to do?
NACHO: And you don’t think that you deserve to go? You don’t think that what you did was basic thievery?
CS: Well, the thing is I wasn’t out to rob banks, I was out to make a business, and I screwed up.
NACHO: But Casey, you got everything fraudulently. Come on, you knew in your heart that that was the wrong thing to do.
CS: Part of me was thinking that maybe I shouldn’t be doing stated income loans, because even though everyone seems to be OKAY with it, I had a little bit of a gut instinct. I should have listened to it; you’re right.
NACHO: And you understand that when you do things wrong like that, sometimes you have to pay the piper?
CS: Oh, yeah. And do you think I’m paying the piper?
NACHO: No, not yet. Not by any means, no.
CS: You don’t think that all the financial stress and the issues I’m going through is not enough?
NACHO: Absolutely not, Casey. I think you should be out there working your ass off — two jobs if necessary — paying five bucks a month on every single bill if that’s what it takes to pay this stuff down. I think you should be calling your creditors and making some sort of payment arrangement for you to —
CS: You know what? Check this out; put yourself in my shoes. Even if I get three or five or ten jobs right now I’m not going to be able to catch all my loans up, so they’re going to go to collections, and they’re going to start suing me. So if the only good thing I can really do right now is bankruptcy protection or refinance all those loans.
NACHO: If you pay five dollars a month on any bill, they can’t send it to collection, Casey, do you understand that?
CS: Sure, they can.
NACHO: No, they can’t.
CS: If I don’t pay the full monthly payment — I can’t just keep letting them go… That means I can just pay a dollar on all my loans and they’ll just keeping indefinitely. They’re not going to do that.
NACHO: I’m not talking about the foreclosure loans, I’m talking about the credit card bills.
CS: Even the credit cards.
NACHO: Casey, you have to do something to try and right this wrong. Who’s the guy who has the blog – I am [$334,442 in unsecured debt. I am 23. Will I make it?] dollars, whatever the hell it is, in debt.
CS: Yeah, the guy eating Ramen and stuff. Yeah, he’s eating Top Ramen; he’s doing all this other stuff.
NACHO: He’s doing the right things. If you would do those things, people would be behind you. People would be giving you suggestions and telling you what to do. Do you understand that?
CS: Well, you might have a good point there. But I wonder if that guy’s really for real, though. Do you think a person can survive on Top Ramen for six months?
NACHO: Oh, yeah. Sure.
CS: Do you think he can eat that crap and still be healthy and still be safe?
NACHO: Yeah, throw some vegetables in there. Casey, the last thing you need to worry about right now, seriously, is eating your vegan — your mildly vegan — seriously, you throw some vegetables and a little bit of whatever, some chicken in the Top Ramen, and it’s fine. Have some beans and rice; that’s fine. Buy a big-ass bag of beans and a big-ass bag of rice and cook it up. Have oatmeal for breakfast –
CS: I do do that, I — [inaudible]
NACHO: It doesn’t seem that way, Casey, it doesn’t seem that way. And that’s what people do when they’re in debt. That’s what people do when they’re in debt when they know that God is watching them and want them to do the right thing. And you know this; you say you’re Christian. You’re Christian, right? Or are you Mormon?
Did you disconnect on me? Oh, you son of a —
CS: I’m back online. I got disconnected.
Hey, thank you for those questions, by the way. I guess I should have known, if I was going to do the live answer, I’m going to get under the fire here, a little bit. That was actually pretty good; to be able to address some of the issues.
We’re actually coming up to two hours. I can’t take any more stuff because it’s already really long, and hopefully, people have enjoyed it. I know some of this stuff was kind of dragging on, but we should have a transcript, hopefully, and I’ll talk to you guys later.
Leave some comments. Let me know how I did.